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Talk:Broly
Return of Broly and Bio-Broly I'm thinking that this page could be better by adding a summary of Broly's life from the movies "The Return of Broly" and "Bio-Broly". This page just captures how Goku and Vegeta and the gang meet Broly for the first time. I don't know the plotlines of either movies well enough to add my contributions though. Just stating that should be a later addition. —''Unsigned comment by'' 69.216.172.152 (talk • ). Ok, I have gotten sick and tired of editing both Broly's and his Legendary super Saiyan article due to which form Gohan had when he battled Broly in the 10th movie. Gohan was in SSJ2 form for the initial part of the fight against Broly's LSSJ form. Just because He didn't have any sparks around his aura doesn't mean that he wasn't SSJ2. Remember, Toei often neglects sparks in certain scenes. Heck, even the MANGA had neglected showing sparks from time to time (Especially when it first debuted in the Cell Games.), and even IF Broly's LSSJ form was weaker than an SSJ2, we don't have any ACTUAL sources to prove that (and before anyone mentions it, the video games don't count.), so unless someone has a source from the creator saying that SSJ2 is stronger than LSSJ, we shouldn't mention that at all. Also, stop editing it to say that LSSJ is weaker than SSJ2. : Gohan wasn't fighting in super saiyan 2 form. It was clearly just super saiyan. (None of ssj2 characteristics are present). So stop puttung super saiyan 2 in the article. I agree that there is no sense in comparing ssj2 and ussj2, because the movie is not canon and the two forms never met. Avada 17:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC) ::^Except for Maybe the fact that his facial features were much, much more sterner (as a matter of fact, his face looked VERY similar to SSJ2 Teen Gohan, and by the time of the Buu saga, the typical characteristics of a FPSSJ the regular forms face, was permanently incorporated into a regular SSJ seen with [[Son_Goten|Goten]], so it HAD to be SSJ2.), as well as the fact that his aura was VERY similar to an SSJ2. Also, don't you mean LSSJ and SSJ2? And anyways, maybe they aren't of MANGA canon, but they are definitely canon considering that Akira was actually credited as the guy who wrote the stories to the movies on this site (and maybe the credits). :::I didn't notice any significant facial change. If it really were ssj2 then then the drawers/animators surely wouldn' forget about the most important characteristics of this form. The sparks and the spiky hair. The film can not be considered canon because it doesn't fit. If it were after the fight with perfect cell Son Goku would be dead, gohan would be ssj2 and trunks would have gone back to his time. If it were before the fight, then gohan wouldn't be a Super saiyan. Avada 22:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC) Sigh... I'll Post Pictures from Broly: Second Coming, and right after Gohan becomes SSJ2 at the tournament to show comparisons as soon as I get some stuff first to provide comparisons. and also, Spiky Hair? Ummm... Last time I checked, ALL Super Saiyan Transformations have spiky hair (aside from MAYBE SSJ4, but that's debatable). Also, I see you're talking about the first broly movie, And I just wanted to point out that the flashback in "The Horror won't end" (I think that was in the manga, however, please correct me if I am mistaken) said that Cell was closely monitored by Dr. Gero (or rather, Android 20) up to his death, despite Imperfect cell clearly stating in his introduction that Dr. Gero let the computer finish the job so he can focus on more recent projects. Android 17 discovered blueprints for Cell despite Trunks and Krillin never finding ANY blueprints of him. And, of course, there was the fact that he was an Android despite the fact that Cell's flashback never even HAD him as an Android. also, in the buu saga, Piccolo said that Majin Vegeta will go to hell since he caused too much pain and suffering, and yet Piccolo (BEFORE being fused with Kami) wasn't that much different from Vegeta at that time, and he STILL got to go to King Kai's planet for training DESPITE causing pain and suffering for most of his life (that's COUNTING Damiao, his "father"). So before referencing plotholes that can't make Movies fit in the timeline, remember that the Manga ALSO had these same kinds of plotholes (Esp. in the Buu Saga). BTW, I'll Post pics of Gohan's SSJ2 form in the Tournament and his SSJ/SSJ2 form in the second Broly movie as soon as I upload them and do some editing (I want to make absolute certain that the face the face is the main focus, not the sparks, the FACE). Uploaded a few images I thought i might upload some better Images of Broly if that's ok. AngusNitro41 9:59pm 27th june 2008 (UTC) Broly Being The Strongest Character? I recently got these infos from Japanese websites and heard some strange talk on Broly being the strongest character in entire DB universe even stronger than Gogeta SSJ4. Well this info says; なお、誰一人として単独でブロリーを圧倒した者は存在していない。このような驚異的設定であるが またバーダック編などの劇場版ㆍTV版脚本を手がける脚本家の小山氏からは恐怖の象徴であるとと もに、ドラゴンボール世界最強の存在とコメントされている。 This quote kinda means Broly is strongest in 1 on 1, hand to hand battle since nobody even match the strength of Broly in the series and movies therefore Koyama says he is the most fearsome and strongest of all characters in DB series and so on. DVDガイドブック- 劇場版ㆍTVアニメも含めて設定上の最強はブロリー、正攻法では絶対勝てないと しか言ってない And also the DVD guidebook says within TV animation and manga and all the movies Broly's strength is recorded to be the most powerful character that nobody could beat on 1 on 1 battle. サイヤ人に伝わる「伝説の超サイヤ人」。ベジータすら戦意を無くすほど脅威に満ちており、ピッコ ロと悟空の同時攻撃を平然と避けるなど、その体型からは想像もつかないスピードを誇る。悟空達と は違い変身における体への負担が一切なく、それどころか劇中で「気が高まる……溢れる」とある様 に、逆に気が抑えきれない程溢れ出る始末である。その為他のサイヤ人とは異なり、ブロリーの気は 何もしていなくても無限に上昇してゆくと記されている。 and plus the last part of this quote says Broly's strength is something that cannot be mesured and it is constantly rising and rising. edit Based on these infos well Japanese people says Broly is the strongest character who could outclass Gogeta 4 and they fight about these. I personally think Broly can be beaten well by probably SSJ3 level or Ultimate Gohan would do. What do you guys think about this? :The opinion of Japanese fans is no more official than the opinion of English fans. Unless Akira Toriyama (or as a stretch, perhaps Toei) was one of the ones who commented. -- 21:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC) ::Does a DVD guide count as an official statement towards Broly's strength level? I don't know, but maybe. Jap Fanboys Jap fans overrate about Broly..way too much! They claim that normal base Broly can beat Fat Buu and Super Perfect Cell and in LSSJ mode he could even take Mystic Buu in few punches I don't think Broly could do that. :It might be a good idea if you edit your comment to completely spell out "Japanese". I know you were probably just using it as an abbreviation, but that wording could be offensive to some readers. Bare in mind that in all places around the world there are some people who will have differences of opinions with others. No need to target a specific race about that! :-P -- 21:37, 18 October 2008 (UTC) Dekoshu 21:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC) !! He can. Ya sorry about that it was just an abb. just to make it shorter anyways the idea was really crazy and I want to know others think. Strongest Ever I agree that Broly is the Strongest, in 1 on 1, and might be able to beat SSJ4 Gogeta. I think that if he had lived long enough to fight Gogeta he would have been more powerfull then ever. In the first movie, Broly had the streanth of a SSJ3. When he was defeated his spacepod crashed on earthand he was frozen in a lake, unable to become stronger through training. If Broly had lived until the end of the Fusion Saga then he might have been as strong as a SSJ4, maybe stronger! So I'd hate to see what he could've done if he lived to face SSJ4 Gogeta. It would probrably be like fighting 5 SSJ4s.--Baracuss 02:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC) :But do we have anything besides supposition to support that conclusion? If not, it has little relevance to the article. -- 08:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC) I don't think he could beat SSJ4 Gogeta because #1: Broly is pretty slow while Gogeta is REALLY fast. Broly would probably be around SSJ3.--Vatek 23:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC) ::That's arguable, as Broly seemed to be fast enough to create clotheslines (by that, I mean a fighting technique where you manage to give an unexpected arm slam on an opponent, and the only way one would pull it off effectively is if he/she was very fast), Plus, he had to have been very fast in order to a. reach Gohan mere seconds after he defeated Goku, B. manage to ambush Goku and Trunks almost immediately after Ambushing and beating up Gohan, and C. Ambush Paragus shortly before killing him. Besides which, if he was slow, please explain why he was able to catch his opponents (I mean, he caught up to Gohan right after the first round and slammed/shot him)? ::Edit: another thing, just a small correction, Baracss, He did become stronger even when he was frozen and in a coma. I mean, considering how Gohan thought "He's still as much of a challenge as the last time we fought" (When, the last time he fought, he was actually fighting against his LSSj Form, not the SSJ form that Gohan was currently fighting against.), and in the Japanese version, Gohan said that Broly had even grown stronger since that fight, that would imply that not only did he still have the same strength as the previous fight, but had in fact become much stronger. ::Oh, and does a DVD guide from TV Animation and Manga count as something official? :::Correction, pretty slow compared to Gogeta.--Vatek 11:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC) Alternate Universe The bit I added (that was undone) about the alternate universes in which the movies take place didn't have anything to do with questions of canonicity. As far as I'm concerned, the movies fit fine with the canon, because of the alternate universes that are implicit in the canon (Mirai timeline, MWI quantum). AT put his name on the movies as the author, so I see no reason to offer any other disclaimer for the contradictions in the movies than "alternate universe". Opinions? Iuvenes 04:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC) :Toei Animation is the "author" of the film. Akira Toriyama submitted designs and and probably some plot suggestions (as he's done with some other films), but Toei personnel are responsible for the Broly film series. The movie contradicts the canonicity of the mainstream series, and because it has no correlation to the manga, that is what makes it non-canon (in the same way that some debate the canonicity of filler material and Dragon Ball GT). ::I understand that they aren't canon, and why - like I said, my point has nothing to do with the canonicity of the movies. I'm just saying that the plot paradoxes aren't necessarily in contradiction to the canon, because the idea of alternate universes was introduced in the canon. I don't think that the contradictions were accidental - I've seen nothing to indicate that they are mistakes, and the insistence that they are mistakes seems to me to be a shallow way of looking at it. Iuvenes 19:30, 10 February 2009 (UTC) :::No one's insisting any mistakes? That might be worded weird, but I don't understand your point which is why I have trouble responding to it. The contradictions are neither accidental no incidental. Like I said, Akira Toriyama isn't responsible for the film series, so it's reasonable that Toei writers might overlook some aspects of the series when developing the plot (it's odd because they were also involved in bringing the manga to television, but it's reasonable nonetheless). And the thing every alternate timeline established by Toriyama (and thus, undebatably canon) have in common is that the Z Fighters have been decimated, whereas in the Broly trilogy this isn't true. Besides, the three films play off of each other, so if one isn't canon, nor can be the other two. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 19:42, 10 February 2009 (UTC) ::::What you have said makes since. The only thing is that if either Second Coming or Bio-Broly are impossible to explain as canon then that doesn't make the first film fall into the same non-canon list with the other two. Another thing is that the first movie could have easily taken place in canon. From what I have heard the first movie takes place in the ten day waiting period to the Cell games, that means that Gohan CAN go SSJ but he can't go SSJ2. I can't see anything wrong with the second movie though and if there are problems with it please tell me. The third movie has extreme problems and I disregard it as nothing more than an attempt to sell the Broly character out, not to mention its' canon problems. Imortality is a curse. 20:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC) :::::Well, Technically, if one goes by that whole "Created by" mumbo jumbo, Akira Toriyama did actually write the Broly movies (as well as the rest of the movies, but still.), so Iuvenes does have a point. I'm not sure I should say that the Broly movies take place in an AU, though. Besides, Akira has made plotholes in his own manga before (Cell's explaination of how he got his Super Perfect form in the manga says "Hello"). Still, it's not an AU, anyways. I'll agree on Bio-Broly being non-canon, though, as the part of 18 requesting the money while Goku's still dead leaves a lot to be questioned. Besides which, Broly, not to mention his clone, Bio-Broly, never even made an appearance in the next movie (I mean, if they could give Bojack, of all people, an appearance in the anime despite being one of the more powerful threats, why not Broly/Bio-Broly?), which implies that even Akira/Toei have doubts as to whether Bio-Broly's even canon. I mean, the only REAL plothole that they had in "Broly: Second Coming" was Goten somehow knowing his father (since the Earth dragon balls had been able to recover in about 4-6 months time in the end of the Kid Buu Saga (and the events of the Majin Buu saga (Not counting the Great Saiyaman saga) up to Kid Buu's defeat took place for one whole day, maybe two at most), I don't count the Dragon Ball usage in "Second Coming" as an actual plothole.). ::::::Yay, I love DB nerds. :) Iuvenes 02:49, 11 February 2009 (UTC) :I'll try to word it better - it was more of a philosophical point than a point of canonicity. I read an interview where AT said he likes making retrofitted explanations for things, and I get the feeling that his attitude toward the DBZ movies was much more positive than his attitude toward GT, for reasons that are probably pretty obvious. It's been a while since I've seen all the movies, but I do remember that some of them had fewer paradoxes than others, and some of them are inane things such as Gohan wearing the clothes Piccolo made him when he came out of the time chamber, but not being able to go SS. It's just a fun overtone to the movies to me, and part of what made them interesting (in a couple of unfortunate cases, the only thing that made them interesting). Iuvenes 02:49, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Not in super 17? Hhe in fact was actually. However, it was a breif appearance on the television set and then he didn't show up again...odd and stupid IMO, a wasted oppertunity but w/e..so was cooler and as we all know that also didn't become anything.--Chipmonk328 :Actually, no. Broly did not make an appearance in the Super 17 saga of GT.'-- bulletproof' 06:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)